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Wiki Discussion

Organization discussion thread (everyone please weigh in) - Page 4

Re: rw nw prt m hrw

Posted by: Torchickens
Date: 2019-11-21 06:51:49

Just letting anyone potentially interested know that they can post in this thread without having passed an arbitrary hurdle of how up-to-date they are. This is about what anyone who browses the site sees, the majority not even registered, and not anything more technical than that.

With that out of the way, my current plan next time I come on is to:

    [li]Make the rest of the "major glitch sub-templates" and a corresponding truncated "major glitch" template for each[/li]
    [li]Move all templates with lists to the bottom of the pages they're on[/li]
    [li]Clean up and populate each "Misc Gen N" template[/li]
    [li]Place the "Misc Gen N" templates everywhere they're needed[/li]


In short, they're nicer for navigation than categories. Needless to say, anyone's free to start doing this or help out once it's started, as it's gonna be pretty inane gopher work. Might not take long, though.

What hasn't been fully addressed:

    [li]What to do about the pages that fall under none of those templates[/li]
    [li]Whether the above plan is a good idea[/li]
    [li]What to have on the sidebar[/li]
    [li]What to have on the front page[/li]
    [li]How to reorder sections on longer pages, possibly using collapsibles[/li]


Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. :)


Thanks for this plan, Sherkel! :)

Re: rw nw prt m hrw

Posted by: Sherkel
Date: 2019-11-23 09:44:57
It's what we're all here for! Went through the Gen 4 pages and did the above, a bit hastily mind you.

By the way, you can totally start new threads to announce pages like this. :o

(Also, I'm going to keep using this silly bait in the subject line until somebody else responds.)

Re: Organization discussion thread (everyone please weigh in)

Posted by: bbbbbbbbba
Date: 2019-11-24 16:41:36
So, do we want to put glitches, tricks, and effects all into the same categories and same templates, or do we want a split?

Re: rw nw prt m hrw

Posted by: Sherkel
Date: 2019-11-25 01:02:41

So, do we want to put glitches, tricks, and effects all into the same categories and same templates, or do we want a split?
In the end, a bit of both. Wherever possible, I'd like the main page of each sub-category (Generation I Item stack duplication, Bad clone glitch, R/G Select glitch) to be the actual entrypoint. But ACE is still what the majority of users come to this site for, so even if it's a collection of entrypoints, it should be the heading of a sub-category. And as a smaller example, the Safari Zone exit glitch only has two major sub-glitches I can think of (Glitch City, and its correspinding RAM manipulation technique), and forces the Generation II examples to the "No further extensions" sub-category which I don't want to be any more populated than it needs to be.

As for tricks vs. effects, they're really the same end goal now that I think about it. Page titles should reflect the difference, though.

Speaking of all this: https://glitchcity.info/w/index.php?title=Template:Major_glitches&curid=762&diff=34208&oldid=34112
Further suggestions for edits would be appreciated, because I don't want to be editing 20-something templates at once when a revision only needs to be made to one.

Re: Organization discussion thread (everyone please weigh in)

Posted by: bbbbbbbbba
Date: 2019-11-25 08:16:22
I have been feeling like half of the "no further extensions" sub-category is a joke.

Cloning is a goal, and there are nearly a dozen glitches across different generations that achieves it. It is also weird to say the bad clone glitch isn't an "extension" of Gen II cloning.

Why is Ditto DV manipulation considered major? The ones that cause illegal movesets or clone items, I can understand, but this one I cannot.

Expanded party encounter table manipulation, Pokémon merge glitch, and Time Capsule exploit are not natural glitches, and they are also probably not the only "major" tricks of an expanded party or a 0xFF Pokémon.

Item duplication glitch is a disambiguation page, with one of the choices leading to another disambiguation page. Oh, do you mean Pokédex flag item duplication? The most common way to setup a x255 stack for item underflow?

Tweaking and Elite Four door glitch (and why not the Broken escalator glitch?) are probably only "no major extension" because our wiki's documentation on voiding is nearly non-existent.



Incidentally, the ledge method and museum guy method for walking through walls are both based on the Safari Zone exit glitch, and you can also fight Safari Zone Pokémon on left-facing shore tiles.

Re: rw nw prt m hrw

Posted by: Sherkel
Date: 2019-11-26 14:17:10
It could be. I've been hesitating to change it due to not knowing everything in its contents through and through, but as one of the few active editors I may as well decide how I'd make it smaller.

Gonna have to disagree on cloning, as with all those glitches across different generations, having them all as separate entries would look messy, and it's arguably only second to ACE when it comes to goals of glitching.

Ditto DV manipulation I can see the relevance of (and am thus inclined to call "major"), but it's definitely a non-glitch exploit in my book.

The Q glitch I'm inclined to keep where it is, but Expanded party encounter table manipulation belongs under SRAM glitches. The Time Capsule exploit belongs under the Bad clone glitch…theoretically. For now I'd rather have it closer to the top.

"Item duplication glitch" should be "Pokédex flag item duplication" with a link to that part of the page.

Voiding should be its own section, but I dislike Gen 4 too much to get into it and understand it. I'll just put the heading provisionally for now with those three under it.

The "Walk through walls" section should stay as it is as the means to it are defined more by the end goal than what they're derived from. Fighting Safari Zone Pokémon is already under "2x2 block encounter glitches".

Re: Organization discussion thread (everyone please weigh in)

Posted by: bbbbbbbbba
Date: 2019-11-26 15:22:29
The basic problem is that we are trying to sub-categorize those glitches based on both the entry points and the goals, which means that sometimes the categorization makes little logical sense ("why is this one put in the goal-based category instead of the entry-point-based category?").

"Having them all as separate entries would look messy", and yet this is exactly what we are currently doing with ACE. I mean, if you are a new visitor to the site and want to find out what are the preferred (easiest, most robust, etc.) methods to achieve Gen I ACE, how are you supposed to tell from this template? (In general, I don't like the goal-based sub-categories existing in this template; I am OK with them existing as separate templates, but I think at least the ACE one in particular needs better organization.)

Ditto DV manipulation looks like a real glitch to me. Similar to the Transform assumption glitch, the intention of the developers seems to be that transformed Pokémon should properly "untransform" when caught, reverting both the species and the DVs to what is originally generated; yet apparently this is not the case when Transform is used multiple times. However, what it achieves is something also achievable by a non-glitch exploit (RNG manipulation), and its application is very narrow in scope, which leads me to believe that it is not that important.

Maybe the way to go is to separate this template into two parts that can and should overlap, "glitches/tricks with useful effects" and "versatile entry points". (Super Glitch, and probably expanded item pack, should belong only to the second category — it is actually difficult to make use of a expanded item pack if you don't know what you are doing, as changing the items (including swapping or using consumables) in the "expanded" region may have bad effects.)



P.S. I feel like we are brainstorming for a way to better present this template, and the forum is not a good place to brainstorm compared to the Discord. Not that I actually have time for brainstorming right now...

Re: Organization discussion thread (everyone please weigh in)

Posted by: Raven Freak
Date: 2019-12-20 22:57:52
I made a table for the glitch trainer rosters, to help organize the pages a bit. The table itself hasn't been added to the pages yet, but it's on my WIP articles page, linked bellow.
https://glitchcity.info/wiki/User:Raven_Freak/WIP_Articles#Glitch_Trainer_Roster_Table_Test

Re: Organization discussion thread (everyone please weigh in)

Posted by: Torchickens
Date: 2019-12-21 15:34:09
Thanks Raven Freak!  :) Appreciate it. ^^ Yes. This was in need of work and was missing payout data someone has kindly been adding. May eventually address this too if no volunteers, to remove duplicate rosters e.g. Youngster x is same as Bug Catcher (?) x or however it is in Big List order as these pages are very large in file size.

Re: Organization discussion thread (everyone please weigh in)

Posted by: Raven Freak
Date: 2019-12-22 13:31:14
I think we could add separate sections on each page like "Youngster's Valid Party", "Bug Catcher's Party (Invalid Party)", etc. since each glitch trainer take's the roster for the next trainer class in the game's data and add the rosters to tables to organize it. Then for the other pages, we could add a link to the Youngster's page, instead of adding the same information on multiple pages.